0:06

I am Varun Rajan, welcome to the Push Pull Podcast, where we interview people about their careers and specifically the push and pull factors that inform their career transitions. Today's guest, Julia Levina, has lived more lives than most of us imagine in a single career. She's a trained counseling psychologist from Ukraine, a former CFO of a family owned pharmacy chain, a business consultant, and currently a behavioral scientist and business intelligence analyst at Headversity, a Canadian workplace mental health company. But those titles don't really capture her story. Julia joined me from Alberta, Canada, where she moved to from Ukraine after the war started in 2022. And what struck me most in our conversations wasn't just her professional agility, it was her deep practiced understanding of what resilience really looks like. We talk about her early exposure to psychotherapy as a teenager in a culture that didn't talk about mental health. We also talk about her experience helping to run and ultimately shut down a family business with the backdrop of. War, economic turmoil, a regulatory environment that was increasingly hostile to small businesses and how she transformed that adversity into purpose. designing coaching experiences for companies and individuals applying theory to real life, and even volunteering to help Ukrainian refugees get resettled in the countries that they ultimately move to. And at the end of the day, taking the chance on herself to move to an entirely different continent. She shares what it means to find clarity when. Everything around you is falling apart, and how that clarity helped her rebuild her life from a suitcase, a cat carrier, and a stranger spare room when she landed in Canada. Along the way, we also dive into the psychology of healthy workplaces and workplace longevity. What makes someone stay at a company beyond just the perks or the paycheck? Julia's take is sharp. She ties internal motivation. Communicating clearly and the underrated power of friendship into something deeply human. This episode is full of reflection, but it's also incredibly practical. Whether you're a manager trying to build a better culture or someone figuring out your next chapter, I think Julia's story is gonna leave you thinking about what it really means to belong to a workplace, to your values, to a larger society, or. Even just to yourself. So this might be one of my favorite interviews I've ever gotten to conduct, and I'm really excited for you to listen to Julia's story. So without any further ado, here's Julia.

Varun Rajan: 2:55

Okay, we're here with Julia Levina, a counseling psychologist with a background in behavioral science and a business intelligence analyst at Headversity. Thanks for being with us, Thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here. Thanks. Wonderful. I, there's so much that I want to ask you, obviously about your career

Julia Levina: 3:14

I,

Varun Rajan: 3:14

all of the things that you have learned there and are exploring today, kind of in the workplace wellness and, dynamism space. but first and foremost, I would love to turn it over to you and just get a sense of, who are you, how would you summarize yourself and what's important to you today?

Julia Levina: 3:29

oh, that's a good question. Thank you so much. yeah, as you said, I work as a business intelligence analyst. so mostly I deal with data, financial data, and all the other data that you can only imagine about the company. so I am, I find it very exciting to actually gather and collect whatever data company can have and see what it actually shows to you. So what insights can you get from it? What insights can, inform any further business moves? Business decisions? This is very interesting topic for me. but in the off hours I continue counseling people as a psychologist because I have, dual background in both business and psychology. And for me, these two fields were never separated because in any, uh, case you will deal with people. Like in any condition, in any situation, you will deal with other people. And, uh, understanding how people think, why they think this way and why they make these decisions and not in other decisions. I find it very interesting and very curious. I'm always fascinated about how differently, uh, all of us thinking and, uh, how differently we get to the same conclusions. We can actually come to the same result, but the path would be completely various. Uh, and, uh, yeah, that's basically who I am. So I, uh, I'm originally from Ukraine. I came to Canada three years ago and actually in June, uh, in few weeks, it's gonna be three years.

Varun Rajan: 5:08

Wow.

Julia Levina: 5:09

And, uh, I work with headversity, uh, since August the same year I came here. So again, in two months it's gonna be also three year since I started with headversity. And um, back in Ukraine I was a counseling psychologist. And before that, um, for nine years I worked in a family business. It was a pharmacy chain, and I started from, basically from dealing with documents as a assistant accountant assistant. And, uh, then I, um, grew up in the company. So I went through all the stages

Varun Rajan: 5:49

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 5:50

the position of, um, what called in Canada Chief Financial Officer. So my job was to make all the financial decisions, in the company. how are we going to pay our. Um, our vendors, um, when are we going to pay, what contracts to sign, uh, what deals to sign, uh, and so on and so forth. So that's why I am saying that I have dual background in both business and psychology. And yeah, I,

Varun Rajan: 6:19

if I were to take a step back and ask you, where your career started was that your first job? Did you see your career there long- Term?

Julia Levina: 6:27

basically, yes. So I can say that it was my first job because I started working there when I was 12.

Varun Rajan: 6:34

Oh, wow. Okay. Family

Julia Levina: 6:36

Yes, it's the family business, so you, you use as many as much resources as you can, and your kids are also resource,

Varun Rajan: 6:45

of course.

Julia Levina: 6:46

but in a very, in a very good way. So yeah, it was my first job, and uh, it was my, like after a while when I grew up and when I finished, when I got my first degree, uh, it was my first long term job.

Varun Rajan: 7:00

What were you, so you were kind of like working there as you were growing up, going to school and everything like that. When you ended up going to university, were you still working there part-time, you know, family business, I'm sure it's a big part of, of your life,

Julia Levina: 7:15

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 7:15

have siblings? How, how did it kind of, uh, influence your whole life and relationships with family and things like

Julia Levina: 7:23

So, uh, in my case, I worked there, part-time when I was 12, 13, 14. Then I moved to another city to, because I, uh, went to another college basically. So that's why I had to move and that's why I stopped working there. but when I, uh, got into the university, after maybe like a third course when we started to, um, get assignments in about the real field situation, like real life situations, I, um, went back to this, uh, to my family company and started to gather data that I used to write all the coursework during like my third force, and fifth, course in the university. So, um, then like this is how I got back. Basically, yeah.

Varun Rajan: 8:13

am I hearing you right? You when you were in school, there was stuff that you were learning about, like real life applications and stuff in your coursework,

Julia Levina: 8:22

Yep.

Varun Rajan: 8:22

world, and you were able to refer

Julia Levina: 8:25

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 8:25

family business, to actually inform the

Julia Levina: 8:27

Yes.

Varun Rajan: 8:28

were doing for your

Julia Levina: 8:28

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 8:29

That

Julia Levina: 8:30

Yeah. It was very cool. It was actually very cool because you learn a lot of theory and, uh, since you have no chance to get to like really real working company, it still remains theory for you. But in my case, I had this chance, so I took this theory, I went to my father and I told, Hey, this is what we are going through. This is what, like I've been learned about, uh, is this actually how it works in real life? And he, he sit with me for a while and then he'll no. It's not how it works in real life. Not at all. It's an ideal situation. So if we, if we forget about government, if we forget about laws, if we forget about taxes, if we forget about all of that stuff, yes, it's how it works in theory, but in real life, no, it's not. It's not how it's, yeah, and

Varun Rajan: 9:22

how did that change your perspective on your education at the time?

Julia Levina: 9:27

you know, it added a lot of doubts in what I was, in, what I was taught about, because I was always, I was always, I started, I actually started to ask, uh, instructors during the lectures, especially like in micro economy or something like that, and like business stuff. I started to ask them, do you have any real life examples of how it works? And I was, I was probably the only one who asked these questions and at some point the whole, my group that I learned was the whole, my group when they wanted to, wanted the conversation to last last longer. They like poked me. Like, can you ask a few questions please? So, yeah, it was funny.

Varun Rajan: 10:09

wonderful. I'm sure the lecturers loved you.

Julia Levina: 10:12

Yeah. Very much.

Varun Rajan: 10:14

Yeah. so tell, tell me a little bit about what brought you back to the family business full time? Were you wrapping up with school?

Julia Levina: 10:22

Yes.

Varun Rajan: 10:23

what, did you have other options on the table or did you always kind of know you were

Julia Levina: 10:27

Um, I, yeah, I had other options on the table and in my case it was connected with the, uh, moving back from the city where I, uh, learned when I studied and, uh, moving back to the city where my actually parents live and where this business was. Uh, so I had an option to stay in the bigger city. but I decided that, um, I already know the company, you know, it's my family. I can be very helpful there. And, um, I also have a lot of knowledge. And this knowledge is checked by practice, by practical experience already. So why not to get back to the company, uh, where everything basically started. And yes. One of the, one of the reasons that I started, that I pursued the, degree in management was because my father had a company.

Varun Rajan: 11:23

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 11:24

So like, I, I already knew that it's something valuable.

Varun Rajan: 11:28

So you came back, and you kind of worked your way up over time until you become CFO of this

Julia Levina: 11:34

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 11:34

which is fantastic. what happened? you know, what, what happened after

Julia Levina: 11:39

haha. The worst started. That was the most interesting part for me, for, uh, S four CFO because, um, you have to deal with all the situations in. credit abilities of finding any resources, financial resources, people, resources like goods, resources, any resources. So I worked my way to this position in like two years, maybe two or three years. And as soon as I started, uh, after four months, the war started. and I had to figure out very fast and very quickly how to, how to close the credit line with the bank because they will not continue it because we live in the risk territory and they are not interested in continuing any credit lines with all the businesses in this territory. I also had to figure out how to change the hiring policy because people move away from this territory you lack resources, you lack people. So also had to figure out how to, how to manage risks when you are dealing with logistics of the delivery. Because companies who produce all the stuff, they are in other regions and they basically have to deliver goods on their, again, risk territory. Meaning what about insurance? What about, any, any risks? So how can we be sure that people who weand that, the drivers of the trucks, how can we be sure that they will get back safely if they don't?

Varun Rajan: 13:18

are already in charge

Julia Levina: 13:20

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 13:21

finances and like supply chains for this

Julia Levina: 13:25

yeah,

Varun Rajan: 13:25

and you're trying to keep the lights on and keep this going. During war

Julia Levina: 13:30

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 13:30

people are leaving and like, you gotta make sure things are delivered. the bank doesn't want to

Julia Levina: 13:35

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 13:36

the, the credit line because they don't know if you're gonna be around

Julia Levina: 13:39

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 13:40

in an

Julia Levina: 13:40

so

Varun Rajan: 13:41

period of

Julia Levina: 13:41

basically in like most, basically in one point of the time, and, uh, I'm talking about weeks, so it's very fast. So it's ba like one point at a time. At one point at a time as a business, you become, cut it off all the external resources that you were using for the, for a while, and you can rely only on yourself. So you can, you should understand what, what internal resources you have, how can you allocate them differently, how can you, switch priorities internally. So what can you do with, what can you do with the, With all the goods that are there in your pharmacist. So how can you adjust the, policies about, okay, we are not going to keep, goods for three months. Uh, we going to keep only for one month because of all this stuff. So like how to, how to, um, rebuild the software that you're using for all of that. So like a lot of things, like it was intense.

Varun Rajan: 14:42

Yeah. My goodness. And this was in, I'm just looking at your LinkedIn. This was in Luhansk.

Julia Levina: 14:47

Luhansk region, the

Varun Rajan: 14:49

Oh,

Julia Levina: 14:50

yes, it's Luhansk region. The city called Syeverodonetsk, but it's a long name. So Luhansk Region.

Varun Rajan: 14:56

Luhansk Region. Okay. wow. okay. So tell me a little bit about so obviously what happened, the war happened. I'm also curious about the kind of, the psychology side of

Julia Levina: 15:07

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 15:08

did you start getting interested in that? When did you go to school for that? What, like what ended up happening with the business? You're obviously, this is a family business, and there's, like world breaking events that are happening that are causing you to have to pivot and shift and really understand a whole new set of constraints

Julia Levina: 15:28

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 15:28

that most business owners, uh, or like people who are running businesses don't have to think about.

Julia Levina: 15:34

Yeah. Likely don't have to.

Varun Rajan: 15:35

a lot of context there, but I'm trying to understand where all of this comes into play with your

Julia Levina: 15:39

Okay. Uh, so, uh, in my case, um, uh, when I met my psychotherapist when I was 15, so it was long before any university I. And, um, I've been going through this therapy for 15 years after that, like with, with some, uh, breaks, but most of the times we were still connected and, uh, still communicating. And, uh, when you are a 15-year-old toddler basically, uh, and you start to, deal with, um, your own mental health and also you start to, talk about, uh, all the mental health stuff, for me it was like opening a new world and I was very curious about that. Uh, and at the same time, as I mentioned, my father had a business on his side and I was still curious about the business side of things. So that's why psychology and, um. views of like, famous, uh, psychologists of the world history. I think like all of this shaped me as a person, and also build the interest in psychology of other people, like how other people think and how their brain works. And on the other side, it was always a business stuff that I was curious about. So when my parents asked me, one day before when we were thinking about which university I'm going to go, so they asked me like, what are you actually interested about? I told money and people, that was my answer.

Varun Rajan: 17:18

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 17:18

And uh, like money and people for them was okay. Then it's something related to e economics to business side of things. So you will pursue that degree first I say okay. And, uh, when I graduated in 2010. Uh, when I got my master's degree in management, in business management, I, uh, after a year, uh, I went, uh, to another university to pursue a psychology degree. So I got a chance to get both degrees before the first stage of the war in 2014.

Varun Rajan: 17:58

Got

Julia Levina: 17:59

Yeah. So when the most interesting time come, I was armed with all the knowledge and understanding.

Varun Rajan: 18:09

I'm also curious a little bit about, I, you know, I. when it comes to psychotherapy, there's been a lot of conversation about this and, increasing conversations about this. At least in like North America. especially during COVID, there was a proliferation of all of these, therapy speak and better help and all these other companies. one of the things that I think before that, used to think about a lot, and a lot of people here would talk about was this kind of like stigma of psychotherapy. so I'm really, I'm really encouraged and also like, uh, I'm very interested to know that you started actually seeing a therapist when you were a

Julia Levina: 18:44

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 18:45

what was that like for you? Was that something that was culturally, uh, kind of understood and accepted? Where is your family very supportive of that kind of thing? there's so much interesting about kind of like where you were working a family business, starting to go to school, having these kind of like dual track interests of people and money. and also like going to therapy for the first time, uh, at a very young age. So I'm, I'm curious, what was the environment like for you supported, making that choice?

Julia Levina: 19:12

So in my case, and also like, so this is Ukraine. Um, when I was 15, let me count, it was nine, this was 20 2003. so Ukraine in 2000, in two thousands, in the early two thousands is the place where, yeah, psychotherapy is not really spread out. It's something that not everyone do. Uh, and even, um, so in my case, my parents were interested in, um, finding a common ground was, uh, me specifically because we were, we had like very messy relationships that time. So basically they did what most of the parents do. They took their kids, they bring their kid to the psychotherapist and told the psychotherapist, here is my kid. Fix them.

Varun Rajan: 20:02

Okay.

Julia Levina: 20:03

was the request. So all the psychotherapists who deal with such parents, they say, okay, leave the kid here and we will talk about it. and the first sessions of course happened with my parents because like, every problem of the kid comes from parents most of the times. So if you want to fix the kid, you need to fix yourself first.

Varun Rajan: 20:26

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 20:26

then of course, so they got the right direction from my psych, my therapist, and they accepted it. And that made them even more interested in, uh, my communication with him. So the work happened on, few, uh, like few levels. So he worked with me while he was working with them too for a while. And um, so they were supportive. But out of all of my friends and friends of my parents, no one did this. So it was, um, culturally, uh, it was something that really was stigmatized. So if you are visiting a therapist, meaning like your psycho, uh, that time, and that was a cultural thing and no one called this stigma. Everyone thought it's normal, a normal thing, So stigma is something that came maybe like 10, 15 years later. Understanding that, thinking this way is actually stigmatizing a person who needs just like normal help.

Varun Rajan: 21:29

right. There wasn't even a

Julia Levina: 21:31

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 21:31

that

Julia Levina: 21:31

yeah, yeah.

Varun Rajan: 21:33

therapy at the

Julia Levina: 21:34

yes. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Um, I didn't share a lot that I am visiting therapist. My parents knew that was enough because they were interested in that and they paid for this sessions.

Varun Rajan: 21:48

so we fast forward a

Julia Levina: 21:49

Yep.

Varun Rajan: 21:50

to kind of where you are in the business And so now, there was the first time around like 2014 ish that was like the kind of like early parts of, of this kind of extended

Julia Levina: 22:02

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 22:02

um, that, that really ramped up again in, in 2022. uh, tell me more about kind of like, uh, wrapping up your time with the family

Julia Levina: 22:11

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 22:12

uh, and anything else that, is relevant to, to your story. between the childhood discovering, you know, psychology, going to school for it later on and, being very involved

Julia Levina: 22:21

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 22:21

business is just

Julia Levina: 22:22

Yeah. So, since 2014, like it was a rough half year or maybe a year with the war and also with the economic situation. So I had to not only deal with all the, like, stuff that related to the war conditions, but also when, um, the war like froze, froze. so all the. Um, like they, they agreed where everyone stays, you know, when they stopped to move around. So they, uh, draw the line, the new borderlines and everything. So after that, Ukraine, uh, went through the hard economic crisis because before the war, like$1 was about, 10 Ukrainian hryvnias. And, uh, after this, so it was in the beginning of the year, but in the end of the year we came to$1 was 40 Ukrainian hryvnia. So it's, and, um, it impacts, you know, even though you operate inside the country, you don't deal with foreign currencies a lot, but a lot of goods that, uh, we were selling, they were imported from other countries and they were imported for the foreign currency, meaning the sky, the price is high skyrocket. So you also have to deal with that. And, um, yeah, the supply that you have.

Varun Rajan: 23:49

the country is at risk. There's less demand for the, Ukrainian currency and as a result, everything that you're importing gets way more

Julia Levina: 23:58

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, uh, for business it means that the supply that you made, uh, when you sell it for the price that you, already, uh, set, you will not have enough money to buy the same quantity that you had before. So yeah, we had to deal with that too. It was the end of 2014, but we, uh, yeah, we got, we got through this, and uh, we got through this pretty, pretty successfully. So we still, we kept us all pharmacies. We kept our bio bulk license, we kept our clients. it was a lot of work, but we made it. That was good. and, uh, in, but, and during this time before, between like 14 and uh, 18, 19, um, a lot of things happened in general. So digitalization came. Uh, you started to be able to do so many things that you were not able to do before because of the digital stuff, because of the software, because of all of that. that allowed, uh, huge companies to appear in Ukraine, huge pharmacy companies who were, monopolizing the market. So they become, they become, basically like the giant whole order stuff for all the pharmacists throughout the country. Meaning like we are talking about order for like 2000 pharmacists at a time. So that's a lot. and the alongside was digitalization. also the, um, I don't know the word how to explain it, but, the basic meaning is, the basic point is that, companies who were resellers of their, pharmacy goods, they, build a lot of, uh, warehouse, a smaller warehouse, and they started to provide service of, uh, delivery to the pharmacy, not to your own warehouse if you have a chain of pharmacies. But the pharmacy itself could make an order from the huge company, huge supplier company, and they will get this order even if it's like, even if it's, uh, it's, it doesn't worth them in a thousand dollars. So they will still get this order on their, to their door, meaning you don't have to have the whole logistics system if you are a private business. You don't have to have it, you will put all this cost and all this efforts on the side of the, your supplier, which also helped these huge companies to operate on the Ukrainian market.

Varun Rajan: 26:28

Right.

Julia Levina: 26:29

And, uh, because they were so, so successful, uh, they also came to the government and, um, uh, pushed the bill about the changes in the licensing conditions. And they, basically, what they did is that they killed, uh, they killed small suppliers like my company was. So they were not interested in any competition. They were interested in, uh, conquering all the market. Meaning if you have even like smaller piece of it, you will be under fire. And this is what they did during 2014 until like 2018.

Varun Rajan: 27:14

what were the kinds of things that they were arguing for? Was it just like liberalization of whatever licensing framework that your industry had to make it easier for them to operate?

Julia Levina: 27:24

No, it was, it was the opposite. It was, strictly in the licensing, conditions, the way that small business cannot even afford it. So they did the opposite. And they, because they are a huge company, they have all this, they have to build a lot of the processes they, that they, put into this licensing conditions because they are a huge company. you will not be able to operate efficiently in any other way. But if you're a small company, you don't need all of that. That will drown you. Which happened? Which actually happened. So in 2018, in 2018, we still had like very nice year. It was one of the best during like last 10 years financially. And in 2019, in January, after two weeks of January, I understood that we, like we have a drop in our turn in our goods turnover for like 45%. Meaning like that's interesting also, that's also interesting case to how can you overcome the drop off in your turnover for 45%. Like you, you have, you have financial plans, you know, like you have, bills to pay, you have, uh, all this, uh, agreements to fulfill and so on. so yeah, we were trying to fight this, um, we were trying to fight this situation, but most of all, it happened because all these big companies, they, came to the region that was risky before, but af like since 2014, a lot of years passed. So people got used to the war situation in this region. They realized that it's, it might be risky, but not that risky. So we can still operate there, there is still a market there, there is still money there. So we can go there. And they came to our region and, um, yeah, it worked out like this. So we had wonderful, 2018, but in January, 2019, right after the new year, we saw a huge drop off. And, um, we, uh, did everything that we could. Like I rebuilt a salary system. I rebuilt pricing system. I rebuilt everything that I could rebuild. We launched everything. We, uh, worked with, uh, new policies for about half a year, and we were able to get from the minus to the zero point, which was awesome, but we didn't, but we still couldn't get to benefit part, you know, to plus section. And this is when we decided that, okay, probably we need to, um, shut down. Probably we need to reorient. And, um, I, uh, found a way how to not kick people off. Uh, so I found, um, I found the company who agreed to take, uh, all the pharmacists in this. basically in rent. So we rented out all the pharmacists to them. and uh, also they were interested in taking people too, so they agreed to, uh, continue paying people's salaries while they are arranging all the changes in the pharmacists, but they don't want to lose the people. So I was actually, that was one of the achievements that I think were, that I think, uh, I am, I'm happy about because I was able not to kick everyone off.

Varun Rajan: 30:57

Yeah. You didn't have to lay

Julia Levina: 30:59

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 31:00

were these pharmacies that you guys were running that you ended up having these other companies acquire like certain locations

Julia Levina: 31:08

were owners of the real estate where the pharmacy is operating.

Varun Rajan: 31:13

Got

Julia Levina: 31:14

and also we were owners of everything that is there in the pharmacy. And by licensing conditions you have to have specific set for the pharmacy. So company who come to rent out the place, for the goal of opening their pharmacy there, they already have everything set up, so they don't need to work on that. They don't need to rebuild the internal stuff and everything. So they were interested in all of that. And also finding, uh, finding people like, like here in Canada to become pharmacists, you need to have, um, degree and also you need to be licensed for that. Same in Ukraine. So that's why to find a pharmacist is a task. in 2019, I started when all of this happened, I was, uh, starting to think, if this business will not, get over it. what should I do? And, uh, basically it was not a long, thought process, so I already understood that. Okay. I know a lot about psychology. I know a lot about business, so I probably start, I probably should try myself in, in some crossing of this areas. And this is how, this is how first business consulting, came in. and, um, the combination of, um. Instruments that are provided with psychology knowledge and, uh, when you are able to put it in the, the business, uh, environment And, this is how I started, started like consulting during all of that, that happened with the business, but I already started consulting people and um, this is how I then transit.

Varun Rajan: 32:56

Ultimately what happened with the business? did you guys have to ultimately shut it down or

Julia Levina: 33:00

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 33:00

it operating for the purposes of collecting the rent? How

Julia Levina: 33:03

yes.

Varun Rajan: 33:04

out with your family? It must've been really tough.

Julia Levina: 33:07

yeah, it was tough, especially for my father because he was an owner of this business and, uh, he started it, in, uh, 1994

Varun Rajan: 33:18

Wow.

Julia Levina: 33:18

it was 20 2019 when we, uh, were thinking about shutting it down. So yeah, we, we ended up collecting a rent basically for the, for all the real estate, places. So, yeah, it was also good. So it was hard for him, mostly for me. It was, uh, for me it was understandable, it was logical. Like I was thinking about that. I saw this separate, I saw this way, for a long time. So for me, I already got used to it. And, um, yeah, I came at some point, I came just, and just explained, that here is our situation. this is what. Probably we're gonna do, this is what we should do, this is what we can do.

Varun Rajan: 34:03

so started doing this business consulting. You kind of like pair it, thinking about your psychology background as well. you know, when did the kind of coaching and, uh, other kind of like psychology stuff? Like what, what was the rest of your time in Ukraine like?

Julia Levina: 34:19

Um, so after 20, like during 2019, I just, uh, started to like, touch the ground. Like what is like, um, and uh, I got a few clients and, um, the sessions that I built for them, they really liked it. And, uh, the feedback was great. And basically since then I, uh, I'm working on the word of mouth, so I don't have website, I don't have anything. And, uh, it works. after 2019 when we, uh, completely reoriented to the, basically to the only rent part. So when everything was done with the previous direction of the company, um, and I got a lot of, uh, time to actually put effort in this area. Now, I, uh, of course I went to, uh, all the courses that I found beneficial. So, first of all, neuroscience, you have to know how our brain wired to actually understand how you can work with it. And, um, then I found a brilliant person who is Russian. He, uh, he's a genius of our time. I truly believe in that. And, um, he founded the whole academy in, uh, St. Petersburg in Russia. And, uh, luckily he had all these courses online too, so I didn't have to go to Russia to actually study so I could study online with them. And, uh, there I met, people who share the same interests, who are also with like big business background. And they are curious about the neuroscience because they need knowledge to apply in their business environment. And, um, somehow, I become a part of the group of three people who shared the same interest and we started to build trainings for, for like big companies and, um. That was very interesting part of the work because, um, one thing is one-on-one consulting is like, one of, it's one way of work. But another way of work is when you actually build an experience for, like 12 sessions, uh, for like 10 people at the same who works at the same company. They might work in this different positions, but they are still an internal team of the company. and you want to build experience for them, to help them understand, all the, um, cognitive biases, for example, that people fall into when they make decisions. And it's not only telling, uh, like this is the cognitive bias and this is how it works. No, because words are. Words don't make this impact. The only thing that make impact is your own experience. So you have to, you have to interact inside your team the way you not only make these mistakes because we do make these mistakes, but also you need ability to reflect on them. See actually, like notify them, name them, and then understand why it's important to, work together in a different way. So that was thing that we started to do and it was very interesting and also very impactful.

Varun Rajan: 37:46

This is, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing a couple of different threads

Julia Levina: 37:49

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 37:49

uh, on your journey, which is super interesting. One is, like you're talking about like the example of cognitive bias. You are finding one of those examples like you did with school where there's the theory and then there's the prac practical application and you're actually like taking some of that theory and like in real time working with

Julia Levina: 38:07

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 38:08

in like within their

Julia Levina: 38:09

That's a good way.

Varun Rajan: 38:09

to actually find places to

Julia Levina: 38:11

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 38:14

and then the other thing, uh, which is kind of like maybe f further along, uh, in your journey is like really understanding how to bring this kind of like psychology, like therapy based approach to building healthier and more dynamic workplaces, which is more, you know, closer to, maybe the, the company, what the company you work for now Um, so it's, it's really interesting to kind of like see that part of your narrative.

Julia Levina: 38:40

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 38:40

I mean, is that, is that, uh, is that fair to say?

Julia Levina: 38:43

It's pretty much fair to say, and thank you for that. Actually. Thank you for putting it this way because yeah, that's right. That's true. That's, um, probably, that's one of the things that I am mostly driven by, so I take in knowledge and put it into the practical experience, not only for me, but also for people around me. So that's, that's interesting that.

Varun Rajan: 39:05

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 39:06

I find this valuable,

Varun Rajan: 39:08

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 39:09

Yeah. And this is how, this is how, um, so most of, like this, uh, training for, uh, organizations, so basically like organizational development, if that's the right term for this in English, that become one of the main lenses for me. But, on the other side, again, because of the word of mouth, I started to, um, get, clients for one-on-one sessions. And again, the same instruments that work with that work in group settings, they can be very beneficial to work in one-on-one settings. And, um, I am pretty like. diverse psychologist in terms of, um, their range of the issues that I work with because, um, I can, because of the, um, difference in, um, probably in coaching and, uh, psychology counseling. I am, and because I understand this difference and because I also understand that, uh, sometimes people come, not to fix their problem, but to get, probably like motivation or just to figure out what they deal with.

Varun Rajan: 40:24

Put a name to like actually like understand the

Julia Levina: 40:26

Yeah. Understand the problem. Yes. Yes. So sometimes they don't need a fix. They are able to fix everything themselves, at this, at the point of time when they understand what they have to fix. raise a two different approaches and I work

Varun Rajan: 40:43

you, do you think

Julia Levina: 40:44

with both of them.

Varun Rajan: 40:44

is more proactive where it's like, oh, here's a pattern of what I've seen in this particular problem I have with the people that I work with and like, actually I can get ahead of it by thinking some other way. I think we're thinking in, in general concepts I'd, I'd be curious if there are any examples that come to mind, whether it's like in an organization or one-on-one with, obviously without revealing

Julia Levina: 41:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 41:07

I'm curious if there's an example that stands out to about a moment where, if something really stands out to you as an example of, they weren't coming to me with a problem to fix, but to understand the problem and how that impacted them down the

Julia Levina: 41:20

Yeah. So, this is also, impacts the, the term of the therapy, uh, itself. So sometimes when people come to understand it's gonna be short term, uh, sessions, like usually we need to have about three sessions. Like we don't need more, uh, just to figure out what happens. And with long-term requests you like, I have a few clients who I work with for a few years because, like for example, when you deal with, uh, sexual abuse, it's something that impacts a lot of areas of your life. So you need to work through all of them, and it takes time because we cannot work on everything at one time And also when we fix something during the life, other things come up and, uh, like person wants to continue fixing all of that till some point they feel that it's enough and usually it takes time. Uh, when, uh, for example, another case, uh, so when person comes to me, because they, they feel lost about the, decisions on their work. So they are thinking if they should. find another job, quit the one that they are into right now, that, uh, they were promoted to a higher managerial position and they, with this promotion, they start to think, should I actually find another job because I, this is not what I feel like I want to. in this case that I am talking about, uh, in particular, um, it, it's a 40-year-old woman who was promoted, from the local manager to a much higher position because she is very well, she's very good employee. Employee, she's very well in her job, and she was always trying to do even more the like, take one step further. And it was appreciated by her managers. but at that point of time, the main goal that she had was, that we figured out was, uh, what should she do to make sure that her, uh, 14 and 15-year-old sons will not go to the army. And, um, she came with a request about the job, but what we found out is that her main priority is this one, and this is what her all life strategy builds around.

Varun Rajan: 43:53

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 43:54

that's why she was considering, like finding another job because she felt that she will get much more responsible responsibility with this. Promotion, which will take effort from her main priority. But she didn't know what her main priority was. She didn't name it first. So when we found it, we realized everything went to its places. You know, like when we found it, we realized why she's making these decisions, why she's considering to find another job, why she's not happy with this promotion. And one of the solutions for her in this promotions was to start delegating. But now she understands why. it's clear for her that she's gonna delegate a lot of stuff on her new position because she needs effort to put in other place. So everything just become clear for her. It's not a long term thing. We did three sessions with her.

Varun Rajan: 44:52

No to. Totally. So she came to you thinking, Hey, I got this promotion and I just

Julia Levina: 44:57

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 44:58

know that I'm understanding this. She came to you thinking, Hey, I got this promotion, but I'm unhappy here. She was unhappy with the level of responsibility to some degree.

Julia Levina: 45:06

She,

Varun Rajan: 45:07

it sounds

Julia Levina: 45:07

so the symptoms were that, uh, she was struggling to, uh, wake up in the morning. She still wake up, she still go to the work. But the, level of effort that she realized she noticed that she needs to put into this was much higher than it was few years ago.

Varun Rajan: 45:26

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 45:27

So she just found this difference. Uh, she noticed this difference and that was, like one of the things that she noted.

Varun Rajan: 45:34

I. Okay. And then this is so interesting and she found that it was much diff more for her, like the effort to do all of these things that maybe a few years ago might have come to her a

Julia Levina: 45:48

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 45:48

readily, or she would've been more excited to

Julia Levina: 45:50

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 45:51

And there's this thing I think, you know, when I look at like management training, whether it's like courses or any sort of like reading materials, blog posts and stuff like that, people often talk about like, well, you need to delegate in order to focus on more important things or strategic things. There basically there's this whole idea of like, when you become a manager you have to focus on

Julia Levina: 46:11

yeah. The

Varun Rajan: 46:12

it sounds, but a lot of times the why isn't necessarily very clear. And for her in particular, there was stuff going on in her

Julia Levina: 46:20

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 46:20

about like her sons and, specifically whether they were going to, you know, end up going to the Army. That actually needed time and effort, and that was being a huge drain on her energy because that was the thing that she actually cared about

Julia Levina: 46:36

Yes.

Varun Rajan: 46:36

Right. and she wanted to be in that. and so you ended up identifying that was actually like the core root of the problem was that like there was nothing about the work that was really draining her. It was that like the work was, it wasn't the work itself that was draining her. It was something else entirely. But the result of that was her getting more effective at delegating

Julia Levina: 46:56

Yes.

Varun Rajan: 46:57

so that she could actually

Julia Levina: 46:58

Yeah, exactly. Yes.

Varun Rajan: 47:00

Wow. That's, that is

Julia Levina: 47:02

it.

Varun Rajan: 47:03

fascinating.

Julia Levina: 47:04

that's, and it was an interesting case too, because all her thoughts were about work. All her thoughts were about work. She never thought that her, she has any personal life goal that actually is so much important that overweights all the other priorities. So again, when you understand how our brain works, you can use just a few instruments that help to reduce the time to get to this point,

Varun Rajan: 47:34

Yeah. Yeah.

Julia Levina: 47:35

because you don't need months of therapy. We are not talking about burnout. even though everything that she told, if you open the textbook, it'll look like burnout,

Varun Rajan: 47:47

Burnout.

Julia Levina: 47:47

it's not a burnout.

Varun Rajan: 47:50

Wow. okay, te tell me more, what came next for you?

Julia Levina: 47:53

in 2020 and 2021, uh, it was time for me when I like acquired new knowledge and build this courses for organizational development and also started like one-on-one therapy and so on. and then the war happened in 2022, like the full invasion. and um, this, uh, shifted of course all the things, it changed all the things because we had to move very quickly. And by very quickly, I am talking about like five hours. So you have to key, you have to leave everything that. You have in your home and like take only the necessary stuff, your cats necessary stuff, and uh, you should go. That's it. yeah. Yeah. and, uh, we moved to another city, inside Ukraine because all the borders were shut down and my husband couldn't, leave Ukraine anymore. and um, yeah, we moved there and, uh, it was like about a half, maybe like three months when, uh, I was doing only volunteer work. So I shifted to, help to psychology, help as a volunteer. I, uh, did whatever I could do, to send packages to like arrange, uh, people moving out from the territories that are under attack and, uh, all the stuff Yeah. And uh, this group that I became, became a part of where we built all this, um, company trainings. This group never left, so we just, again, we just reoriented. We built a few, we built a few programs to, help those who had to move, adjust in the new place. And these programs were built for volunteer initiatives in Germany, in Poland, in other countries who were, who was the main, how to say this, the main hubs of, um, refugees from Ukraine.

Varun Rajan: 49:57

right.

Julia Levina: 49:58

like first few months it was crazy. People had no idea what to do, and they were in the, in the different country was different language. They, most of the times they, they don't know English. Even like, I'm not saying about German or Polish or any other language. And, uh, people over there, they also don't know what to do with all these people. Like how to actually help them. And they see fear, they see frustration, they see, um, that people cannot put their thoughts together. And like all of that stuff, they also need help. They like, they as a volunteers, they need help in structuring their efforts in understanding what actually these people need and how to provide this help. So we build a few programs to, help, uh, in the early stage accommodation of, uh, refugees from Ukraine, and we spread out it through other volunteer initiatives.

Varun Rajan: 51:01

I see. so you, so the, the war really starts in, in earnest, you move out very quickly

Julia Levina: 51:07

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 51:09

essentially everything that you were doing to essentially like. Supporting, you know, your fellow Ukrainians, like, as a part of the war

Julia Levina: 51:17

Yep.

Varun Rajan: 51:18

defensively, right? You're, you know, there, there, there's pro bono therapy that you're giving. You're actually, you know, putting packages together. There's practical stuff to make

Julia Levina: 51:25

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 51:26

are, are fed and can leave if they, if they want to. And then you move into essentially like accommodating refugees as they these countries in Europe and kind of like sharing it with those teams that are taking in refugees.

Julia Levina: 51:37

Yeah, that's, yeah, that's correct. And after three or four months of this, like I was still under the influence of all the things that were happening in Ukraine, but the main idea that, um, stick to my mind is that, like I need to move forward. whatever happens next, the one thing that I can be sure is that time will pass. That's it. And, uh, if I am sitting at the same point and not doing anything to rebuild my life or to build my life from scratch, because I have, in three months, my native region was occupied and, uh, I understood that I, and it's still occupied. I don't have where to return in Ukraine. And,

Varun Rajan: 52:21

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 52:23

uh, I realized that, okay, so probably I need to build life again from scratch, which is again, okay. Uh, but, uh, this was the point in time when I started to look for any other, opportunities where to move in. Canada was one of the most, um, attractive ones because, uh, they provided work permits for Ukrainians. They provided insurance for Ukrainians. Like you could get Visa only by online applications. So you don't, and uh, when you come here, your like next steps are pretty obvious. So after two years or after even one year here, if you find a job, you can apply for permanent residency and then after another two years you can apply for citizenship, which is the most shortest time I.

Varun Rajan: 53:16

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 53:16

Ever seen across all other countries, like in, no other, in no other, options. You need five to 10 years and, uh, sometimes you will not have, you will not get a chance to get citizenship. I,

Varun Rajan: 53:31

right. Yeah. and so did you, did you come when you ended up coming to Canada? were you there with a work permit to start? Did you come to Canada first or were you looking for a job first?

Julia Levina: 53:43

Oh no. I came to Canada first.

Varun Rajan: 53:46

you came to

Julia Levina: 53:46

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 53:47

then were you, did you come with your family

Julia Levina: 53:49

came alone with my cat.

Varun Rajan: 53:51

okay?

Julia Levina: 53:52

a leap of faith, you know, because I came into nowhere. I had, I had no idea about the life in Canada. I, uh, con I connected with, uh, one of the volunteers on this site on Canadian side. Uh, and she, um, connected me with a family who were, who agreed to host Ukrainian for a while. And they hosted me for a few months, but then I found a job here, so I was able to rent the place on my own. And I'm still grateful for them, for hosting me for a few months for absolutely no charge. So, which was very nice of them. yeah. And, um, when I came here, like I came with a one like medium sized luggage, backpack and my, and candle with a cat. it was also very interesting ex very interesting, uh, experience because you need to understand how to pack, how to package everything that you did before in the way so someone who are you talking to will understand who you are. And that was the main, challenge for me because whoever you meet, first of all, they see you, whatever story you tell them, they see you from their lens. And, uh, I started to see how people see me through their lens and I was like, okay, right now I'm talking with a person who has consulting agency and they are consulting government institutions about, their like policies or something like that. and she, when I tell her my story that I was in the pharmacy chain, that I became a consultant psychologist, and I have a good experience in organizational development and so on, she picks, stuff that is more relatable to her and this is how she, gives me feedback. So she combines what is relatable to her from her own experience and this is how she see me. So that was very interesting.

Varun Rajan: 56:00

so you have to find a way to kind of like sell, or at least convey the things that you know are impressive about your background and the things that you're capable of to folks that might see you a particular way because they know who you are, where you're from, and to a larger degree, the circumstances of your presence in Canada. Right.

Julia Levina: 56:20

yeah,

Varun Rajan: 56:21

and so they're just gonna kind of like pick out like, what is it that I actually like, need

Julia Levina: 56:24

yeah, yeah. Exactly,

Varun Rajan: 56:26

and not necessarily taking you as like your whole person

Julia Levina: 56:30

exactly.

Varun Rajan: 56:31

with the whole

Julia Levina: 56:31

Yes. And also it's hard to, you know, like we, even like with you, we need some time, like about 10, 20 minutes to actually, for me to explain who am I and what expertise do I have because I have a lot. And, uh, not everyone is, uh, willing to do that. So when you are an immigrant here and you have very limited. Amount of money because life in Canada, in comparison with life in Ukraine is so much expensive. so you have limited resources, limited time, limited everything, and, uh, you need to find job, but you also don't want to find something that will not utilize at least some part of all of your experience and expertise that you have. So,

Varun Rajan: 57:20

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 57:20

and I understand that it's unsolvable problem for people with medical background because you cannot become like an optometric here without diploma, without, education in Canada, even though you have like 30 years, years experience in surgery,

Varun Rajan: 57:37

one of the things that you said about like leaving Ukraine was like, Hey, like I've, and this is what I'm hearing. So, so definitely step in and, and correct me if I'm, if I'm not getting this right, but, I've done what I've, what I can here and I need to find a life for myself and I need to build something for

Julia Levina: 57:54

yes. That's exactly what it was.

Varun Rajan: 57:56

And Okay. and you know, I can imagine that was a really difficult decision to make. and like you would come alone, right? Like you, obviously you have your parents, you have friends,

Julia Levina: 58:05

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 58:06

husband there as well. how, like, how are they doing? Like, what,

Julia Levina: 58:10

Oh wow. People, so I visited Ukraine last December, so it was like half year ago. And, um, people adjust, the main ability of our kind is just, it's. Being able to adjust to any situations and any conditions. So people adjust to all the air alarms, to electricity, shutdowns, to everything. So yeah, they are irritated and angry about the war. my parents specifically, they are okay. So they, they have their retirement, income. They, found, we were able to find, uh, very nice people who don't, charge them rent. So they own like, so they basically, they are hosting them in their apartment. For free. My parents pay only like, um, utilities and that's it, but it's not, it's okay. It's the same that they will do in their own home, but they don't live in their own home anymore. so they are pretty much okay, everything is, uh, familiar to them, you know? And, um, um, life in Ukraine continues. Life in Ukraine goes on because still a lot of people there. Like we had 45 million people I think, before the war, and it's still around 30 millions right now. So it's still a lot of people there. And, um. when I was, when I visited my parents. Actually, if you don't, listen to what people talk in the lines because everything that they talk about is only war, like bomb shelling, war decisions of president, one president, another president, and stuff like that. so if,

Varun Rajan: 59:56

like the weather at that

Julia Levina: 59:57

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 59:58

like all around and what

Julia Levina: 59:59

Yeah, exactly. Uh, so if you don't listen to what people talk about and if you don't, uh, listen to the news, you will not even mention that the country is in war because live goes on as usual. sometimes. Quite often because electricity shutdowns were about like probably the whole each day. So, uh, like specific areas of the city, like this area or that area don't have electricity during like six hours during the day. So people bought generators, they, uh, so they found a way how to still continue operate as the stores and the businesses. So they found a way how to, get electricity even though it's not supplied anymore.

Varun Rajan: 1:00:49

Yep.

Julia Levina: 1:00:49

Um, so yeah, they used to it, but they are tired and irritated about all this situation, which is again, logical and understandable. And yeah, all of them, all of them. Wait when it's finished, finally.

Varun Rajan: 1:01:09

Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I, it's a, it's a testament to, to human resilience, right?

Julia Levina: 1:01:14

Basically. Yes. Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:01:17

Yeah. It's, it is tragic, but, uh, it's, um, it's obviously like that resilience part of it is obviously like really impressive. And I think like, you know, introduces a lot of, uh, a lot of hope, in that story.

Julia Levina: 1:01:30

I hope so.

Varun Rajan: 1:01:31

so tell me about, so you get to, um,

Julia Levina: 1:01:36

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:01:37

and you are looking for work. it's just you, a little backpack, medium sized luggage, and your cat, you stay with a, with a host family for a little while.

Julia Levina: 1:01:47

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:01:47

then, uh, what was headversity What came next? Um, what, what

Julia Levina: 1:01:51

Basically Headversity, what came through Networking. So I, um, and even here, when I came here after a week, in Canada, I connected with a girl who already started in a volunteer initiative for Ukrainians. She, uh, was a career advisor at the time, and she helped Ukrainians to build their resumes to prepare for interviews and so on. So I, yeah, I connected with her and asked, and, um, asked her what's the main point that she feels not working in everything that she's doing. And she told that bridging the gap between theory and the practice is something that. She doesn't know how to do. And I told, I know exactly what you need to do. And we built and we built, we built a series of workshops, that were specifically made to, uh, build a skill of resume writing. That was one workshop, another workshop to build the skill of going through interview. And the third workshop was to build the skill of building a network here in Canada. So it was four hour workshops, each one of them. Uh, and we, uh, ran them each weekend and like we hosted like 50, 60, 70, 80 people sometimes on these workshops. And, um, yeah, we basically combined her expertise with my understanding how to put theory in practice exactly what you told before. So yeah, we did this for a year probably. Yeah. And, um, because, um. We did all of that and because my main goal was to, build a network here in Canada because like you need other people, because other people know other people. and, um, this is how I found headversity. And basically I, first I met with the, with the person who was interested in helping Ukrainians. Again, this was her volunteer, uh, job. And, um, she, introduced me to her friend. Uh, and, uh, this friend decided, okay, I'm going to meet over coffee with a Russian speaking girl. Why don't I invite my other Russian speaking friend? And, uh, this other Russian speaking friend was the girl who almost started to work at Headversity, but she decided to, go pursue another opportunity because she got two offers at the same time. But when she, uh, so when we met over coffee, uh, we are supposed to meet two of us, but it was three of us. And when she heard about my experience, she, uh, told me like, I know exactly where you have to work. Exactly with all your background and experience. And she wrote a very nice email to HR person in Headversity because she was already connected with them through her interview process. And she sent her my resume and they reviewed my resume, invited me to the interview. And after the, after even the first interview on site, I, uh, like I, uh, went, out of the office with the feeling that I am perfect fit for them and they are perfect fit for me. And if they, if they don't agree to hire me, well, okay, I'm gonna be sad. But it's a good opportunity for them too, to have me on board.

Varun Rajan: 1:05:15

Yeah,

Julia Levina: 1:05:16

And they decided to fire me. And this is how I found job. And this is where I work still for three years.

Varun Rajan: 1:05:21

that's

Julia Levina: 1:05:22

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:05:23

te tell me a little bit about Headversity, what they do, what your role is there. and I, I'd love to dig into kind of, given all of the stuff that we've talked about, what you've learned about, you know, what Headversity is trying to accomplish and how that ties of your kind of psychology work and

Julia Levina: 1:05:38

Yeah. So Headversity is a company who, basically they are a B2B SaaS company. I think so. Yeah. they worked with other businesses and they provide a service of, um, a rising mental health awareness in, uh, employees of the company. So, they, have foundational training in mental health areas. So they provide certifications also. They, provide like. Personal training through the set of lessons and practices, and they provide group training, uh, through the set of, um, basically group setting like training in a group setting, uh, around mental health that offers you a way to, start the conversation about different topics in mental health and, gather people together to, and give them a chance to talk about stuff that they usually don't talk about, in mental health areas. So I started with them in the research analyst because at that time they needed somebody who understand the psychology, but also business needs, which is me. Uh, yeah, and I started as a research analyst and I, um, like my first work assignments, job assignments were to, continue develop content on the platform. And, uh, one of the main things that, Headversity, uh. Did as a company and as a product company. They, they developed an idea of, um, putting all the CBT practices, CBT approach into the digital experience. And that was one of the interesting challenges that I had as a psychologist who works, uh, in the startup company, in the digital company, in mental health area. So I had to figure out how can we take a CBT approach or any other approach that I know, uh, and how can we digitalize this approach? And it's, uh, and we had to digitalize it with all the product requirements. You know, like it should not be long, it should not be 45 minute sessions because no one will last this long. So it should be short, quick, and still provide you with value and benefits, and it still should. Give your results because again, on the other side of the application, there is a person who goes through this experience and they have to feel value of this experience. In other work case, they will not get back anytime. So, yeah, that was a challenge. And, uh, now, Headversity has this, uh, practice section built and, uh, all the practices were built from scratch. And basically this is a unique product because practices that, uh, Headversity has right now, which were Yes, built with my help, uh, as a specialist in this area. practices are not about meditation that all of us are used to, but they are about reflection. They are about, I. Like building skills. They are about going through, uh, specific, um, models, of, uh, solving tasks. to build a skill of reflection, you need to understand, how it works and how to put it in like four or five questions because this is the lengths of the practice, like it's nano practice, and it's supposed to be very short, meaning less than two minutes long. So you have, as a user, you have to be able to answer all that, to go through all the reflection questions within two minutes. So

Varun Rajan: 1:09:23

And. what have you seen from the, you know, both on the, kind of like employer and employee side in terms of the impact, that, Headversity has had, just on, whether it's on the employees, like what are the kind of benefits for the businesses, I'd be curious to know what the outcomes look like.

Julia Levina: 1:09:42

one of other unique things that headversity has is psychometric data. So because, uh, they build experience, user experience, the way that you will answer a set of questions in the beginning, it's not a very long set of questions. And, uh, during your interaction with the platform, you will give the platform answers on the same questions at some point, meaning you will have initial answers and updated answers, and you will know the activity between these two points in time. So what we have found, uh, from the data perspective is that, actually, uh, people who spend like 60 to 90 minutes, on the platform, they have, uh, tangible, changes in their psychometrics. And another thing that I also proud of is that, because I build the live events on, uh, this platform too, so there is a chance for all the employees of the clients to participate in webinars basically once a month. so we also found that, participation in this very practical webinars alongside with training on the platform gives, uh. Gives very, um, different, uh, gives like huge impact again on psychometric results. If we compare it with people who, who use only platform.

Varun Rajan: 1:11:15

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 1:11:16

live and live events don't work separately from the platform, so you need to have the combination of all of that. And this, uh, this was also like we saw the, we saw the increase in stress management skills, for example, for 22%. That's why we see companies who are. Interested in the product, of Headversity because they also understand that they have, they have a lot of people who needs this information, who will benefit from the information and especially, considering that Headversity has not only awareness piece, but also practical piece. So we cover a lot of areas there and also certification.

Varun Rajan: 1:12:00

Yeah. and the other thing I'm curious about, what does it take to, you know, convince a company that they do need it? Or what does a company need to have to understand like, Hey, this is gonna be good for the workplace. Uh, what are the kinds of things that they care about? Obviously, things that come to mind to me, obviously are things like burnout, overwork stress, impacting productivity.

Julia Levina: 1:12:19

One of the things that I hear quite often, and I'm not a sales person at all, I can, uh, yeah, I can talk about the cultural difference in this, about this, but I'm not a sales person at, so one of the,

Varun Rajan: 1:12:31

just gen, genuinely

Julia Levina: 1:12:33

yeah. One of the thing that I hear when I sit on the client meetings as a, as a business intelligence analyst, one of the thing that I hear is that, people are interested to provide instruments that employees will not only use once, but we'll get back to it.

Varun Rajan: 1:12:52

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 1:12:52

And, um, this is exactly one of the goals that headversity wants to achieve. So, like we build this gamified experiences and everything just to make sure that people actually get back to the platform. So like notification, a lot of stuff. And, uh, from cultural perspective, actually, when I figured out, when I found out about such companies university, then I came there and started to work there. And still, I don't think that such companies exist in post-Soviet countries because here I feel like, we are not arguing that mental health initiatives are needed, uh, on the, in the workplace. Like here in Canada and us, we are not arguing about that. It's something that is clear, it's understandable. Everyone agreed on that. You don't need to build, um, like any rationale behind it, that's normal If,

Varun Rajan: 1:13:55

that's super helpful to

Julia Levina: 1:13:56

yeah, if you go to Ukraine or Russia, uh, you will spend a lot of time just to explain that there is mental health of your employees that you need to take care about. So you need to explain the first part and then you need to explain the second part. Why are you as an employer, need to take care about the, your employee's mental health issues?

Varun Rajan: 1:14:22

Yeah,

Julia Levina: 1:14:22

So I don't think that there is a company like Headversity in the post-Soviet countries because there is no market for this company.

Varun Rajan: 1:14:32

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's, that's super helpful. And it, and it touches on one of the questions I wanted to

Julia Levina: 1:14:37

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:14:37

which was about the cultural differences and how, employee mental health, shows up, you know, between kind of, uh, you know, US Canada versus somewhere like Ukraine. my curiosity has kind of been evolving as I've been doing these, interviews and understanding people's career transitions. one of the things I think about is like workplace longevity, especially within knowledge work. and from your perspective, from a behavioral science lens, what is it that actually makes someone want to stay with a company for the long haul or longer than

Julia Levina: 1:15:05

Hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:15:06

would have?

Julia Levina: 1:15:06

Yeah. that's also a good question. Thank you. And, uh, what I realized, uh, working, in Headversity, working with Headversity is that, you always have, like internal and external motivators. And again, this is, I realized that I realized the practical implementation working with Headversity. But this comes from, of course, from the behavioral stuff, from the knowledge of, how our behavior works. So you always have, internal and external motivation, and, um, uh, each one of us has, uh, unique combinations of, uh, the factors that we actually feel relatable to. like Headversity specifically is, The best place to work, if you have very strong internal motivation. So if you go there to work for yourself, so you see the benefits of, uh, doing what you're doing for yourself first, like you will thrive. And, um, because he, mercy has pretty good level of independence. so no one is tracking your time. you have, uh, you have an opportunity to work on the, tasks that you are interested in. So like it's um, very good. It's very good. workplace conditions to, Maybe show your independent thinking and stuff like that. and other companies, they do have like culture cult, a lot of cultural stuff in place. So this is our workplace culture. This is what we are doing at the company and so and so on. So they provide a lot of external motivators. um, for example, like for myself, I would rather go with independence than with cultural stuff. So I do appreciate more like some level of freedom than, um, a lot of um, like group activities that we do as, uh, people who work in the company. and, um. So you have to think about, you have to think about, belonging, like probably the way, how feeling of belonging builds. And, um, usually again, it's a combination of three things. one is, uh, your internal motivators. So what are you interested in as a person, as a specialist in your area. the second thing is, um, what company can provide you with, uh, do they, do they give you a sense of appreciation, for example, and how this works in the company. so do you have specific benefits if you meet your KPIs or like how it, how does it work in, uh, in your company and what works for you as employee? And the third thing is, um, weird thing if you have friends at work. Because usually if you have friends at work, uh, the probability of you leaving the company is, uh, like many times less than if you don't have, a friend, uh, at work. So yeah, if your company is built the way that it encourage friendship at workplace. So this is also interesting to see.

Varun Rajan: 1:18:40

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I, I've been reading this book, wrong Fit, right

Julia Levina: 1:18:43

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:18:44

uh, and it's about kind of like people finding fit in different working environments. And a big part of what they're saying is like the culture of the, Of the company is it's like culture. I kind of like, I think you kind of distinguish culture versus like autonomy. but I'm seeing culture as like autonomy would be like part of the culture, right? In the sense of like, oh, we have a culture of like everyone does their work. We trust everyone to do whatever. you get heads down and do what you need to do. We don't really care if you're in the office at sometime or whatever. but anyway, the thing that I'm thinking about is yeah, it's like most people feel they have a good fit when their environment reflects their

Julia Levina: 1:19:19

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:19:20

so this, this all really resonates with me. what are the trends that you're seeing across workplaces? I'm curious about what problems they think they have versus the ones that they might actually have. have you seen anything like through your consulting, like in organizations and stuff? And the reason that I ask is because at least like in your one-on-one

Julia Levina: 1:19:40

yeah,

Varun Rajan: 1:19:41

you've seen people come to you with a specific problem and you've said, actually, let's talk, about other aspects of your life that are not this particular problem

Julia Levina: 1:19:48

yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:19:48

And then you've unlocked something, right?

Julia Levina: 1:19:50

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:19:51

I'm curious if you've seen something similar with workplaces and organizations where they think, Hey, have a culture problem. And you're saying actually you have an autonomy

Julia Levina: 1:20:00

Uh,

Varun Rajan: 1:20:01

something like, as an

Julia Levina: 1:20:02

of the, yeah, one of the main things that I saw, uh, when we did trainings for the companies, and also when I was talk, when I was, um, building a few trainings on my own for, small and for middle-sized companies, one of the like common things that I see in every workplace is that, leadership team think that they have, um, yeah, like you said, that they have cultural problems. Meanwhile, the real problem is the problem in communication. Uh, we quite often think that if we were able to. Name things or specify things. It means that other person who was listened to us, they understood the same. We quite often think about that, think this way. Uh, and it's, uh, in most of the times it's not how it works. Most of the times, uh, leadership team put a lot of effort to outline the strategy, build the direction of where we are going to develop or like how we are going to develop our product. And, um, they forgot that people who will actually do some work there, they have different meanings behind the same words Quite often. That's why the way how they read the document or the way how they hear their leadership, it's very different. Theys builds very different meaning in their minds than. The meaning that leadership team wants to communicate, actually. So I would say that, yeah. And uh, then you see that it doesn't work. Like leadership team said, see that it doesn't work the way they hoped it's gonna work. And they think we have cultural problem, like we need this and this, and this. To streamline the effort to, uh, navigate people, to direct them into their right, to right resources. But, most of the times it's communication issues.

Varun Rajan: 1:22:14

And what is the antidote

Julia Levina: 1:22:17

Feedback,

Varun Rajan: 1:22:17

and what is the Feedback loop.

Julia Levina: 1:22:19

loop. Because, one of the things that actually and you are doing in this session, and also a lot of people who I, uh, follow, especially speakers and those who take interviews, one of the things that they always do is they try to, um, um, rephrase what they just heard.

Varun Rajan: 1:22:40

Right,

Julia Levina: 1:22:41

loop. So I am, I'm sharing my story the way how I share it, and then you take time to, talk back to me and explain like, this is what I hear. Correct me if I'm wrong and you give me chance to correct you if you're wrong, but most of the times you're not. But this feedback loop, first of all, it's a skill. So I bet you'll learned how to do that,

Varun Rajan: 1:23:07

for sure.

Julia Levina: 1:23:08

and you put some effort in that. It's not something that goes, uh, goes naturally. You have to learn how to do that.

Varun Rajan: 1:23:16

And it helps me learn. It

Julia Levina: 1:23:19

Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:23:19

become a more active listener when I'm thinking about, okay, how would I say this? How do I know I'm on track with this kind of thing

Julia Levina: 1:23:26

So I would,

Varun Rajan: 1:23:26

But

Julia Levina: 1:23:27

yeah, I would say that feedback loop and, uh, rebuilding the processes to actually implement the opportunity for this feedback loops. So this is the antidote of, uh, a lot of problems in the workplaces. A lot.

Varun Rajan: 1:23:43

and, and this is really interesting because you talked about. Naming the problem in this context and in the kind of like one-on-one context. And one of the things that I'm seeing is, one of the things I might be hearing here is that in the one-on-one context, a lot of times naming the problem is like, really important. And then, but you're just doing that with one other person, so they just need to like name that for themselves. So when it comes to an organization naming something, putting together a strategy or something like that, I. Is not sufficient because there's some level of consensus building, not from the perspective of getting everyone to agree that this is the right strategy, but for getting everybody to actually be on the same page about what the strategy

Julia Levina: 1:24:27

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:24:28

That consensus building and those feedback loops are actually informing, naming the problem at an organizational level. And communication and those feedback loops are the pathway to get to, like naming the

Julia Levina: 1:24:41

Yes. Yeah.

Varun Rajan: 1:24:42

at an organizational level, concept of naming the problem takes an additional step of building consensus around understanding

Julia Levina: 1:24:48

Yeah,

Varun Rajan: 1:24:49

problem or strategy actually is going to

Julia Levina: 1:24:52

yeah. Because when we talk about any problem, on the level of the whole organization, the problem looks and names this way, but when we go level down, to solve this problem, all these people need to solve any other, like a lot of other problems.

Varun Rajan: 1:25:08

From your counseling work, all the way through to your own personal journey, I think one of the things that we've talked about quite a bit is.

Julia Levina: 1:25:19

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:25:19

and human resilience. And I'm curious how your view of human resilience has shaped how you think about the workplace.

Julia Levina: 1:25:30

My view of human resilience? that's a good question. You know, the, um, like, probably one of the things that come to my mind is that, usually whatever size of the company, uh, is usually company, uh, is a representation of, the mind of its leader. So, whoever started the company, whatever, however their mind works, this is what you will see in the company. realize like what are the mechanisms of, overcoming issues your owner or like owner of the company have. So what do they have in, their toolkit for overcoming any, uh, problems? And this is what you're gonna see inside the company. So if your leader is, uh, somebody who is used to push through the problem, you will see KPIs, you'll see a lot of stuff that will build this atmosphere of pushing through the problem. Usually it's how it, it's how it works. So in Headversity, we have a psychiatrist as a leader. And, um, he's very. A very calm, uh, person. like I feel very comfortable there because, uh, I feel that, a lot of processes, they are naturally build the way, to, uh, support and understand the person, but still provide enough independence because again, he's psychiatrist.

Varun Rajan: 1:27:11

Yeah.

Julia Levina: 1:27:11

solve all the problem for the person. You will not put them in the heart conditions. You will provide level of independency still with the opportunity to communicate, to connect, to talk, and so on. And this is what I see inside the company. Like I can easily go to their office and start talk about something, some ideas, even though I have like layer of managers between me and them.

Varun Rajan: 1:27:39

right. Yeah. Uh, Julia, anything else that you would, uh, like to leave me with today?

Julia Levina: 1:27:47

oh, just a thank you note for arranging all of this, and it was a very interesting conversation you made. You made me think about a lot, so thank you. Thank you so much about it.

Varun Rajan: 1:28:00

Thank you. Uh, I, I'm, it, I'm so glad that, that, uh, that we met and, uh, that you reached out when I was stalking you on LinkedIn,

Julia Levina: 1:28:08

Oh,

Varun Rajan: 1:28:08

we got to

Julia Levina: 1:28:09

my pleasure.

Varun Rajan: 1:28:10

yeah, no, this is, uh, this is really wonderful. I, I learned a lot and I, you know, your story's, incredibly compelling and I think your, resilience through so many different, like tough times are also really instructive for people on kind of understanding where they are, how to make a decision, and prioritize themselves and, and, the choices that they make in order to find what really resonates with them and put themselves in a position so that they can actually pursue

Julia Levina: 1:28:34

Mm-hmm.

Varun Rajan: 1:28:35

Um, so I, I really appreciate it.

Julia Levina: 1:28:37

Thank you so much.

Varun Rajan: 1:28:38

listening to this really will too.

Julia Levina: 1:28:40

Thank you so much. Questions were wonderful. Like they really make me think about a lot and connect the dots from all over the places, which help you to build another like somewhat different picture that you had before even about yourself. So thank you. Thank you so much for that.

Varun Rajan: 1:28:57

it's, it's one of my, you know, favorite kind of like side effects of, of doing this is being able to find another angle that like resonates, uh, with, with whoever I'm

Julia Levina: 1:29:06

Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks.